The Hoboken Tax Reform Coalition
Police Audit and Interest Arbitration Resolutions on the agenda for Wednesday - Read the drafts here. Is the Res on the Audit a strong statement from the Council or not?What about theArbitration Res?
http://www.scribd.com/full/27675163?access_key=key-1bsn2bzu5ui2njpl... Resolution on Interest Arbitration Changes.
http://www.scribd.com/full/27675158?access_key=key-3s1bhcmiybe47avjru0 Resolution on Police Audits
http://www.scribd.com/full/27675158?access_key=key-3s1bhcmiybe47avjru0 Resolution on Police Audits
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Donna Antonucci on -
I know everyone is a critic but after reading the resolution on suggested arbitration changes, it talks about how increases should not exceed the cost of living adustment. What it doesn't say is that if there is deflation which is what the US experienced in this recession, that pay cuts are not out of the question and in fact paycuts in line with deflation should be expected.
In the private sector jobs can be cut more readily. Bonus are regularly used to vary pay on the companies ability to pay and bonuses even in a relatively normal year don't always go up and can go down. In this recession people have taken outright pay and benefits cuts.
It must be understood that an adjustment downward is possible and that they system of coming to an agreement for public safety employees must figure out a way that this can occur when justified. It should provide a process to allow pay cuts when necessary.
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Permalink Reply by Donna Antonucci on
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ok. What was the source that the Journal used? also what is the mean and waht is the distribution ? I asked because there is exponential increases at top part of the org chart that could distort the average. Have you seen what Citigroup is doing with the TARP? they are paying it back so that they can give out bonuses but it's all for the top 10% of the company who are well well beyond middle class. Top 2% income earners on a national basis - 5500K +
Averages can be deceiving and I suspect that those payouts are not distributed evenly. 96% of financial services company employees are not in management..
upfront said:here is more food for thought....
Total compensation and benefits at the publicly traded firms analyzed by the Journal are on track to increase 18% from 2008's $123.4 billion, and 6% from 2007's $137.23 billion payout. This year, employees at the companies will earn an estimated $149,192 on average, up almost $3,000 from 2007 levels.
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Permalink Reply by Jack Dawkins on -
Donna: Couple of questions
This is odd, but you say, hey, on Wall St. it's just management that's over paid, but isn't it the top tier in the public sector that you take issue with as over paid? Those at the very top of the food chain with reference to salaries and other payments? And, if so, wouldn't it hold true that you would not like to see pay & salary cuts for those at the low end of the pay scale in the public sector? I haven't studied this interest arbitration thing - but does it restrict pay raises at the low end?
You know this whole "deflationary period" thing is a load of crap, don't you? You don't actually believe that the CPI truly represents real cost of living, do you? Didn't Greenspan start dicking around with it over a decade ago? Nonsense like, during tough times people eat hamburger instead of steak and the "enjoyment" of purchased things should be weighted? Had something to do with controlling entitlements or other market manipulation.
Now, I'm not asking these questions because I either support or don't support this resolution. I don't have enough information to have a position at this time. I'm just curious as to where YOU are coming from with your post.
Donna Antonucci said:ok. What was the source that the Journal used? also what is the mean and waht is the distribution ? I asked because there is exponential increases at top part of the org chart that could distort the average. Have you seen what Citigroup is doing with the TARP? they are paying it back so that they can give out bonuses but it's all for the top 10% of the company who are well well beyond middle class. Top 2% income earners on a national basis - 5500K +
Averages can be deceiving and I suspect that those payouts are not distributed evenly. 96% of financial services company employees are not in management..
upfront said:here is more food for thought....
Total compensation and benefits at the publicly traded firms analyzed by the Journal are on track to increase 18% from 2008's $123.4 billion, and 6% from 2007's $137.23 billion payout. This year, employees at the companies will earn an estimated $149,192 on average, up almost $3,000 from 2007 levels.
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Permalink Reply by Donna Antonucci on
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I don't think that the uniform guys are markedly over paid..I think it's a shame we have bumping rights. Although the Police supervisors are overpaid, in terms of roles and responsiblities and scope they are in in no way in the same league or analogous with the people I am referring to. The top brass at the tail of the distribution have thousands of employees under them over multiple locations and manage millions of dollars in capitalizable and operating expense. Citi for example had about 4000 top executives that made this kind of money in an organization that had 800K worldwide. And it's one giant set down below a certain level. I think they are not down under 600,000 employees.
The Police supervisors are middle managers and are not nearly the power brokers of large companies. If it weren't for being overpaid they would barely be affluent (affluent = top 3% income earners). The people that get exponential increases that are unchecked by their boards are in the top 1/2 of 1% fo the company.
the governor doesn't get as much as these guys. Christie has pointed out there are some directors who make north of $300K which is ridiculous.
Yes, CPI is a manipulated number that can be moved around depending on the bundle of goods included the weighting between them. I am too tired at this hour to go through all this but cash is king. I bought my car at 50% the book value because the person who sold it to me had to dump the lease to refinance her house (bank wouldn't gifve her the loan unless she jettisoned the lease) and she was about to readjust to something she couldn't pay. I call that deflation. Food prices went up when fuel prices went through the roof. Restaurants were giving away deals. Landlords are cutting rents - both of those I would call deflation. i got a programmer to work on my business for $30 /hour who used to work for $150/hour. I call that deflation. I don't know that using a pegged, manipulated factor is the best idea which present other issues but the point I am making is the system we have today does not allow for decreases even when it's obvious that people are overpaid.
The state is looking at regionalization which would make it allowable to look at NYC who pays the police at the 50th percentile of the national average +18% cost of living adj for NY;. Penn I haven't looked at but I am sure they are cheaper than us...every other state is cheaper than us.
Frankly, I am too tired at this hour to go through this. maybe tomorrow
Jack Dawkins said:Donna: Couple of questions
This is odd, but you say, hey, on Wall St. it's just management that's over paid, but isn't it the top tier in the public sector that you take issue with as over paid? Those at the very top of the food chain with reference to salaries and other payments? And, if so, wouldn't it hold true that you would not like to see pay & salary cuts for those at the low end of the pay scale in the public sector? I haven't studied this interest arbitration thing - but does it restrict pay raises at the low end?
You know this whole "deflationary period" thing is a load of crap, don't you? You don't actually believe that the CPI truly represents real cost of living, do you? Didn't Greenspan start dicking around with it over a decade ago? Nonsense like, during tough times people eat hamburger instead of steak and the "enjoyment" of purchased things should be weighted? Had something to do with controlling entitlements or other market manipulation.
Now, I'm not asking these questions because I either support or don't support this resolution. I don't have enough information to have a position at this time. I'm just curious as to where YOU are coming from with your post.
Donna Antonucci said:ok. What was the source that the Journal used? also what is the mean and waht is the distribution ? I asked because there is exponential increases at top part of the org chart that could distort the average. Have you seen what Citigroup is doing with the TARP? they are paying it back so that they can give out bonuses but it's all for the top 10% of the company who are well well beyond middle class. Top 2% income earners on a national basis - 5500K +
Averages can be deceiving and I suspect that those payouts are not distributed evenly. 96% of financial services company employees are not in management..
upfront said:here is more food for thought....
Total compensation and benefits at the publicly traded firms analyzed by the Journal are on track to increase 18% from 2008's $123.4 billion, and 6% from 2007's $137.23 billion payout. This year, employees at the companies will earn an estimated $149,192 on average, up almost $3,000 from 2007 levels.
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Permalink Reply by Donna Antonucci on
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I dragged myself out of bed to make one more comment
The top brass in private don't manage millions of dollars but billions and sometimes trillions of dollars and franklu just because they getting large increases doesn't mean they deserve.
Institutional investors replaced individual stock holders, by buying large blocks of stock. If a compnay doesn't perform they dump it. People used to invest in a company and hold it, went to the annual meetings and voted. If the chairman and the board didn't push the ceo people would not re-elect them. Now no one goes, board sit around and talk about the economy and they fight over the same people who want that non stop job. They approve ridiculous packages for themselves and the ceo.
No checks. Again look at the criticism on why citi is paying back the tarp early.
The equivalent in the private sectot to srgts, Lts, and captains in terms of depth, breadth and scope of reasponsibilties, have been laid off and/or variable comp cut and cut drastically over a number of years.
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