The Hoboken Tax Reform Coalition
Do not vote for KidsFirst!
Do not vote for KF until they answer satisfactorily the following questions:
1. What actions were taken to identify and eliminate the ILLEGAL students and how many were found? (12 is not the answer!)
2. THERE is NO TAX decrease for the taxpayers this year! Why? The BoE tax levy this year is only $3,000 less than last year! Please don't respond by saying that the state cut funds!
3. What concessions were negotiated with the custodian union? What is the outcome?
4. What did the BoE do to decrease the almost $30,000 per student? (hint: bringing illegal students as it was done in the past, is totally unacceptable!)
5. All board members should disclose to the public all members of their family employed by the school district. If there is such a conflict of interest, they should explain why they want to be on the BoE.
It is appalling to me that we trusted KF to do the right thing for the taxpayers, and 1 year later they managed to cut not more than 3 thousand dollars! Last year HobokenRevolt mobilized a great deal of members to sit out in the cold to convince the taxpayers to vote for KF! I believe that is the Revolt' steering committee responsibility to hold KF accountable!
It is time to stop deceiving the public!
1. What actions were taken to identify and eliminate the ILLEGAL students and how many were found? (12 is not the answer!)
2. THERE is NO TAX decrease for the taxpayers this year! Why? The BoE tax levy this year is only $3,000 less than last year! Please don't respond by saying that the state cut funds!
3. What concessions were negotiated with the custodian union? What is the outcome?
4. What did the BoE do to decrease the almost $30,000 per student? (hint: bringing illegal students as it was done in the past, is totally unacceptable!)
5. All board members should disclose to the public all members of their family employed by the school district. If there is such a conflict of interest, they should explain why they want to be on the BoE.
It is appalling to me that we trusted KF to do the right thing for the taxpayers, and 1 year later they managed to cut not more than 3 thousand dollars! Last year HobokenRevolt mobilized a great deal of members to sit out in the cold to convince the taxpayers to vote for KF! I believe that is the Revolt' steering committee responsibility to hold KF accountable!
It is time to stop deceiving the public!
Views: 7
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Lincolnlogger on -
Overtaxed,
I'm trying to follow your reasoning here. We agree that out-of-town students exist, and to some degree are an issue.
You claimed that "if the BoE would eliminate 200 illegal students or more, the classes as well as the budget could be reduced significantly."
I tried to analyze this to show you that wasn't necessarily the case.
Then you stated "I don't think that the teachers should be the target. Their salaries don't have a great impact on the budget."
You can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
Regarding the rest of your statement, I can't find much that I (or Kids First) would disagree with.
"It's the top heavy administration that is expensive." True. While some of this is manageable, some is not. In order to get good people, you need to pay well. Identifying the waste, redundancy, and overpaid staff takes some time, and some progress has been made. Even when you can find them, however, they are not always easy to get rid of. We've seen the case where administrators refusing to leave end up replacing lower-paid teachers and going back into the classroom, which is their supposed privilege based on their seniority.
"I am pretty confident that if an honest BoE wants to consolidate and save, there are ways to do it." Absolutely. And Kids First has been doing that. That's why there was an audit. That's how they found the cafeteria staffing issue. Is there more to do? Certainly. But you can't claim that nothing has been done.
"All the current excuses that I've heard (such as ohh...all these people have contracts that we cannot break...ohh...we have to protect the kids...) are just poor excuses." No one is offering excuses. Cuts were made, significant cuts. It's certainly not Kids First fault that the state cut the aid disproportionately for our district, denying us any realized tax savings.
Having contracts that you cannot break is a legal issue, and it has an impact on how the budget can be cut. Progress in this area will be understandably slower because of this. Do you advocate making illegal staffing cuts? Do you want a Board of Education that does so, costing us extra tens or hundreds of thousands in the process?
Regarding "protecting the kids," do you not agree that the purpose of having a school district is to educate children? Do you advocate cutting important services to these children? Are there costly services that are supplied to the children that are unnecessary? Possibly. Can you name them? I can't.
These are important issues. Ones that we cannot afford to have a Board looking to fix with short cuts and rash solutions. We cannot afford to have a board who is looking to cut first, and ask questions later.
We need a Board who is willing to do the due diligence of examining all the possibilities, make the responsible choices, and to stay the course. Kids First has done this, and will continue to do so.
Overtaxed said:Greg, regarding your statement "1. It seem to me that there was a little progress made on this, though not as much as you or I would have hoped. I'm not convinced it's the number one priority though, for reasons mentioned earlier. Basically, an extra 200 kids spread out throughout the Hoboken schools and classrooms don't add a whole lot of burden to the system, and the savings of finding them and removing them would be minimal."
I believe that if the BoE would eliminate 200 illegal students or more, the classes as well as the budget could be reduced significantly. That would be ~10 classes. What is the purpose of these crooks accepting illegal students if it wouldn't be to retain unnecessary staff? Raslowsky had a plan when he opened the door to the illegal students, don't you think?
Greg,
By all means, I don't think that the teachers should be the target. Their salaries don't have a great impact on the budget. It's the top heavy administration that is expensive. I am pretty confident that if an honest BoE wants to consolidate and save, there are ways to do it. All the current excuses that I've heard (such as ohh...all these people have contracts that we cannot break...ohh...we have to protect the kids...) are just poor excuses. The kids receive the most expensive education in the state, and the metrics show poor results. That begs the question: what is the money (our money) wasted on?
Lincolnlogger said:Overtaxed:
Let me give a hypothetical example of the out-of-town students, and how it might impact classroom enrollment.
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Permalink Reply by Overtaxed on -
Kathy,
I would take the time to analyze and offer viable suggestions if someone could send me an organizational table for the school district. Would you be able to help getting it?
Kathy L. Mallow said:Dear O.T.:
With respect, your response stymies reasonable dialogue. It reads as "I will place blame, but I refuse to suggest solutions for what I'm unhappy with." How helpful is that toward achieving shared goals & objectives? You have identified goals, but don't seem to grasp---and/or refuse to address the realistic process involved to achieve same. What are the public suggestions made previously you deem "ignored"? What do you perceive as a realistic timeline for change within the public sector? Surely, we're all feeling the financial pain....
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Permalink Reply by georgia on
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Andre, I would like to get in touch with you to discuss how we, as taxpayers, could start by ourselves a school district clean up. If indeed people have knowledge and lists of out of town students who are illegally attending Hoboken schools, why don't we do something about it? The 1st step would be to forward the list to the school superintendent and to the county superintendent, Tim Brennan. If they won't take action then, we could go higher.
Stealing from the taxpayers is a crime. It is time to do something about it. Other cities are suing the offenders (the parents who lied about the residency) to recuperate the money spent on these students.
Some people here argue that a hypothetical 200 students are not hurting our pockets and it would not make a difference if we eliminate them. How about a simple principle: it is against the law, and you and I are paying for it. Why did Christie cut Hoboken's budget unless he is aware that money is being wasted here? As soon as the governor cut the budget, boom, the boe eliminated the same amount! Something is unquestionably not so Kosher here!
If other people have knowledge about names of students residing outside Hoboken, please come forward.
Andre said:I have never blogged on this site before so I will take a stab...
How does one report "illegal" students? I know a few and I am sure everyone does...
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Permalink Reply by georgia on
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I urge everyone to take a look at the metrics reported by Stuyvesant School in NYC. They spend about 13,000 (not 30,000!!!) per student, and they produce the smartest kids in NYC for half of what we spend.
http://schools.nyc.gov/SchoolPortals/02/M475/AboutUs/Statistics/exp...
This School
Total Dollars Spent at this School $40,728,722
Total Per Student Cost in this School $13,033
Total Per Student Spending for General Ed Students $13,033
Total Per Student Spending for Special Ed Students
Per Student Spending on Classroom Teacher Salaries $5,667
Per Student Spending on Summer and After School Programs $253
Per Student Spending on Professional Development $96
Entire System
Total Per Student Cost For Entire System $17,696
Total Per Student Spending for General Ed Students $14,525
Total Per Student Spending for Special Ed Students $47,442
Per Student Spending on Classroom Teacher Salaries $6,862
Per Student Spending on Summer and After School Programs $469
Per Student Spending on Professional Development $544
http://schools.nyc.gov/SchoolPortals/02/M475/AboutUs/Statistics/reg...
Total Student Population 3,261
Class size:
http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/919D2D59-092E-40C8-B26C-5AD685F...
Budget:
http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/funding/schoolbudgets/fy10SchoolBudg...
http://docs.nycenet.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-189/A-125.pdf
“E. If at any time a parent fails to disclose to a school that a student attending a New York City
public school is not a resident and the Department subsequently determines that the
student is no longer a resident then the student forfeits his/her right to remain in the school
for the remainder of the year and will be discharged at the conclusion of the semester
during which the determination is made. The student also forfeits his/her right to submit an
application to remain as a non-resident.
F. If it is determined that a parent used a false address to establish residency or does not
disclose his/her non-resident status, the student is only eligible to remain in his/her current
school until the end of the semester when this determination is made. The student is not
eligible to apply for admission for the remainder of the year or for following year. The parent
must pay tuition retroactively for each year that the student was enrolled as a non-resident.
G. Department of Education employees who send their child to a New York City public school
while the employee is a non-resident and who fail to pay the proper tuition will be subject to
appropriate action, which may include referral to the Special Commissioner of Investigation
and disciplinary measures, including termination of employment.”
How do you like them apples?
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Permalink Reply by FAP on
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Georgia would you equate Stuyvesant to a normal public school or would you say it more closely resembles a selective charter school?
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Permalink Reply by Joe Brennan on
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Of course it's not fair to compare Stuyvesant, which can select from among the best students in a city with a bigger population than some well known countries, to the students whose parents choose, or only realistically have the option of, the lone public high school in a city with a fraction of a % the population of NY.
But by the same token there is simply no evidence that I know of that even well spent extra $'s can do a lot ot close a gap such as Hoboken High v Stuyvesant. And it's obvious, to me, that Hoboken's high education spending is not caused by offering students more than in other school districts which spend a lot less, in NJ, putting aside elite public schools in huge cities.
It's very important to get the best results possible from a given body of students. That is the fundamental job of professional educators. They can by no means throw up their hands and say the demographic of the student body justifies poor results. But again from a taxpayer POV there is just no evidence or reason to believe, in general or especially in Hoboken's case, that high spending is maintaining some level of performance that would deteriorate seriously if we aimed for spending that was more like average, average in a high education spending state. This assumes of course, that we make cuts in the right places, but by all means make serious cuts, and no more excuses why not.
The goal should be to spend no more than the NJ average (or at least a lot closer to it) per student. And the burden of proof should be squarely on anyone opposed to that idea to explain exactly why, and show evidence, that a much higher level of spending per pupil is actually producing appreciably better results than an average level would.
I have not made up my mind about the upcoming school board election, but I am quite frustrated by the lack of progress in the past year.
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Permalink Reply by Sven on
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FAP said:Georgia would you equate Stuyvesant to a normal public school or would you say it more closely resembles a selective charter school?
FAP, do you have any comments about the following 2 paragraphs:
"“E. If at any time a parent fails to disclose to a school that a student attending a New York City public school is not a resident and the Department subsequently determines that the
student is no longer a resident then the student forfeits his/her right to remain in the school
for the remainder of the year and will be discharged at the conclusion of the semester
during which the determination is made. The student also forfeits his/her right to submit an
application to remain as a non-resident.
F. If it is determined that a parent used a false address to establish residency or does not
disclose his/her non-resident status, the student is only eligible to remain in his/her current
school until the end of the semester when this determination is made. The student is not
eligible to apply for admission for the remainder of the year or for following year. The parent must pay tuition retroactively for each year that the student was enrolled as a non-resident."
I'd venture to say that some statements like the above would go a long way in rendering even an otherwise pointless re-registration letter campaign somewhat effective. After all, how many parents would knowingly violate the rules if the consequence of being caught would be some hefty tuition bill? Why not giving this a shot?
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Permalink Reply by georgia on
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Fap, point well taken. However, if Hoboken schools spend more than twice the amount while failure is written all over, isn't it clear that the money does not go to the students? Remember the scandal of STAN's store and his annual half a million given by the BoE in exchange for overpriced sports equipment? Is Stan still in the works? Or the million dollar bus expenditure that Raslowsky had in his budget? People don't even realize that when they vote 'YES' for an insane budget like the BoE's they give money away to people who are just wasting it.
Why would I vote for Rose Markle who has a conflict of interest since her son works for the school?
Why would I vote for Minutillo who was quiet for a whole year and pretending (it was all a secret when you would ask her about the clean up's progress) that it's all good?
No, it is time to give other people the wheel of power. I like the idea of bringing 2 young men on board. The 'moms', despite their educational background, proved to be ineffective. They think that if they cut the budget they take away from the students. See also about Leon: he declared last week in the Hoboken Reporter that he is sensitive to the students' needs. We do not need more bogus political statements, we need doers.
FAP said:Georgia would you equate Stuyvesant to a normal public school or would you say it more closely resembles a selective charter school?
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Permalink Reply by Meatloaf on -
Sven, who do you think are illegally entering the Hoboken's public schools? You can't get blood from a stone. You really need to review the laws in the state of NJ. The boe is governed by NJ not NY. These musings are fodder with no relevance to the state of NJ. The laws governing illegal out of district students was provided on this very thread, please peruse them.
Georgia,
-We live in the state of NJ.
-Illegal out of district students is an administrative responsiblity. The Registration policy is being enforced, as well as removing illegal out of district students
- Stuyvesant is a selective NYC PS school- students must "test in".. Special education services are not needed to address 25% of their student pop.
-Please provide factual evidence that Stan's is overcharging this BoE THIS year.
-Please provide documentation that Rose Markle's son works in the district. You CAN'T because he doesn't. He is a college student attending school elsewhere in the state.
-Had you attended BoE meetings, viewed them on TV or even bothered to read Kids First accomplishments on this very thread, you would have noted all of the administrative, teaching and other positions cut (to the tune of absorbing 4.1m)
-what is the state average for next year? How does this budget compare? You don't know because that data is not there. What is known it that the budget is expected to be 7% lower from current spending with an overall cut in aid of 5% of the budget and 1.8m in combined obligated increases from prior contracts and insurance. I might suggest you make a few calls, read a few papers out side of Hoboken-you will find that vast majority of district are not only using the 4% cap the year asking for waivers. The budget is lowered by 4.1m going forward.
-I am surprised you only support the men. especially one(Forsman) who didn't know the HBOE had a band and another (Lin) who believes Elec is not the public's business and who's only suggestion is to correct all of the committee issues Maureen Sullivan is responsible for (Sullivan is the chair of facilities and transportation)..
-What are your slate's (Real Results) plans for cutting the budget: how much? what departments, what strategies?
By the way, Commission of Education Mr. Schundler commended Kids First on their negotiations.
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Permalink Reply by Kathy L. Mallow on
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Dear O.T.:
I'm glad you're game to offer your analysis.
Since I'm not on the BoE, I'd suggest you ask the BoE for the organizational chart.
I can only imagine that's a great starting point to further address your concerns.
I would suggest we're all in agreement that there's much to be done.
Overtaxed said:Kathy,
I would take the time to analyze and offer viable suggestions if someone could send me an organizational table for the school district. Would you be able to help getting it?
Kathy L. Mallow said:Dear O.T.:
With respect, your response stymies reasonable dialogue. It reads as "I will place blame, but I refuse to suggest solutions for what I'm unhappy with." How helpful is that toward achieving shared goals & objectives? You have identified goals, but don't seem to grasp---and/or refuse to address the realistic process involved to achieve same. What are the public suggestions made previously you deem "ignored"? What do you perceive as a realistic timeline for change within the public sector? Surely, we're all feeling the financial pain....
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Permalink Reply by Overtaxed on
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I doubt that the BoE is the entity to release the organizational chart. Would Carter release the documents? So far I hear that he denies certain requests. Read Donna's letter today. She made plenty suggestions to both BoE & Carter. So far the suggestions fell on deaf ears.
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Permalink Reply by truthseeker on
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Meatloaf posts everywhere that the school budget is going down 7%. THAT IS A LIE PUT OUT BY THE MIKE LENZ LIE MACHINE. This is a website for people who can add and subtract. If you can't do the math, Meatloaf, please don't muddy the waters of the conversation.
I contacted Mr. Davis, the business administrator. He said the budget was reduced 2%. If you want to keep lying, I suggest you do it on a different website. Going into last year's election, the budget was about $59.4 million. (look it up, like I did, rather than just creating numbers out of thin air). This year he said the budget is $57.9 million. That's a $1.5 million reduction that comes mostly from retirements and some attrition. The other $1 million comes from one-shot revenues like a very sketchy lease-back plan for the textbooks. If I've got it right, the district sells the books it already owns to a company and then we pay for them all over again, with interest. How stupid.
He also said the tax levy, which is the amount of money we vote on on election day, is going to be exactly the same this year as it was last year. NO TAX CUT. No wonder Dawn Zimmer is supporting Kids First. She pretended to be a tax cutter too but neither group seems willing to pull the trigger. As Leon Gold put it so well, they have got to be "sensitive and understanding" before any spending is even looked at.
It's Markel's daughter who is a substitute teacher at Elysian Charter.
And I heard from those who were there last night that Schundler commended the school board, not Kids First, for getting givebacks from the teachers union, which didn't happen. Sounds like he didn't know what he was talking about because Ruth MCallister heckled him during his speech with the information that it was the custodians union contract, not the teachers, that was settled.
Meatloaf said:Sven, who do you think are illegally entering the Hoboken's public schools? You can't get blood from a stone. You really need to review the laws in the state of NJ. The boe is governed by NJ not NY. These musings are fodder with no relevance to the state of NJ. The laws governing illegal out of district students was provided on this very thread, please peruse them.
Georgia,
-We live in the state of NJ.
-Illegal out of district students is an administrative responsiblity. The Registration policy is being enforced, as well as removing illegal out of district students
- Stuyvesant is a selective NYC PS school- students must "test in".. Special education services are not needed to address 25% of their student pop.
-Please provide factual evidence that Stan's is overcharging this BoE THIS year.
-Please provide documentation that Rose Markle's son works in the district. You CAN'T because he doesn't. He is a college student attending school elsewhere in the state.
-Had you attended BoE meetings, viewed them on TV or even bothered to read Kids First accomplishments on this very thread, you would have noted all of the administrative, teaching and other positions cut (to the tune of absorbing 4.1m)
-what is the state average for next year? How does this budget compare? You don't know because that data is not there. What is known it that the budget is expected to be 7% lower from current spending with an overall cut in aid of 5% of the budget and 1.8m in combined obligated increases from prior contracts and insurance. I might suggest you make a few calls, read a few papers out side of Hoboken-you will find that vast majority of district are not only using the 4% cap the year asking for waivers. The budget is lowered by 4.1m going forward.
-I am surprised you only support the men. especially one(Forsman) who didn't know the HBOE had a band and another (Lin) who believes Elec is not the public's business and who's only suggestion is to correct all of the committee issues Maureen Sullivan is responsible for (Sullivan is the chair of facilities and transportation)..
-What are your slate's (Real Results) plans for cutting the budget: how much? what departments, what strategies?
By the way, Commission of Education Mr. Schundler commended Kids First on their negotiations.
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